Gun VS Knife

 

Recently, I came across a Facebook post by, let's call him, John.  John runs a firearms training school and has tapes / photos of an actual knife-gun interaction.

Maybe not this gun or knife

Here's what he has to say (italics):

First actual, legit, no joke defensive knife use I have ever seen caught on camera, and the lesson it teaches is that a knife is a really sketchy defensive tool and I don't recommend them as defensive tools almost ever.

It's only in films that security cameras take great photos or they can be 'sharpened'

Pic 1: armed robber jumps off the back of the moto with a gun in hand. Defender accesses his knife and hides his right hand.

A gun is clearly visible in AR's right hand.  The hidden knife?

Pic 2: robber approaches, gun in hand, to take defender's property at threat of his life.

Counter attack with knife  Is that a sheath on D's right side belt? 

Pic 3: Armed robber closes distance to take property, and when he gets at arm's length the defender stabs him in the neck. Hard.

I'm not sure how you can make that assumption from a photo. I can't tell from the photo the actual point of impact.

Pic 4: armed robber (AR) immediately creates distance. Thankfully this armed robber didn't shoot the defender(D) who was able to run away. Robber ran off, too, and from what I can gather hasn't been seen at a hospital which means either he died and his buddy dumped the body somewhere it hasn't been found, or the wound was superficial.  I didn't include this photo.

Lessons:

1.     The big drawback of a defensive knife is that it requires you be at contact distance or closer to use. That allows a threat in VERY close proximity and that creates all kinds of problems.

John is absolutely right about this. Knife confrontations are an up-close acts.

 

1.     Note that the FIBK (F*&^ I've Been Knifed) factor is nowhere near what FIBS (F(*^ I've Been Shot) is. Maybe the noise is the difference, maybe the fear of being shot, but FIBS makes people scatter. I bet this perp didn't even know he was stabbed for 15-20 seconds but thought he had been punched. The change in behavior generation difference is STARK between a defensive knife and gun. Gun beats knife by a mile here.

We’re going to differ here.

First, I've been to firearms and knife training schools. I've run firearms training classes. I've never had to shoot or knife anyone. The vast majority of trainers have never used these skills either, but they have practiced them.

It may be true that AR didn't know he was stabbed, but many people shot also don't know they were injured either. The effect of a gunshot is usually most keenly seen with bystanders, who usually start clearing out. As for stopping power, that’s another swamp. It is a safe assumption at the height of the conflict, neither a bullet or knife stab to the heart would have instantly stopped a committed attacker.

1.     Any place where it's illegal to carry a firearm, it's almost ALWAYS illegal to carry a knife that is any defensive use whatsoever. So, it's not legally advantageous.

There are places in which I cannot legally carry a handgun, but can carry a knife. School grounds are one example, and so are post offices. I see the signs on supermarkets, hospitals and others, no guns allowed. But a knife is another story.  Having a tool is the bottom line.

4. Given 1-3, I just don't think it's a valuable tool to carry defensively for the vast majority of people. A utility or pocket knife for box opening and general use can be beneficial for many people and I carry a nice Benchmade 730s Ares for just such needs. But defensive knives ain't what many people think they are.

I am reminded of the old saw: "What's the best survival gun?" Answer: The one you survive with.

But first:

There is no one response, or governing principle that fits all possible cases, other than don't be there. Be somewhere else. With this in mind, based on my training and experience, I have a few observations.

How big of a blade is needed? Mike Janich and Christopher Gross in "Contemporary Knife Targeting" list 6 artery targets what will, with a resting heartbeat of 70 bpm, lead to death in under three minutes. Of these, 5 are less than one inch under the skin. Janic and Gross recognize that two stages are typically passed through prior to exsanguination. These are shock and passing out. Both conditions affect the Armed Robber (AR).

There are advantages to small, 4-inch and smaller knife blades. As Doug Micarda says, "Contact weapons are meant to be felt, not seen."  A Roman short sword defeats the reason D conceals his knife. The apparent absence of a weapon encourages AR to move in close.

Using a contact weapon to defend yourself against a handgun requires you to get control of the gun. This may be your grip on the gun, on his hand, wrist, and lastly, elbow. It may also be a momentary deflection followed by a struggle to gain control of the gun and deploy your knife. Your goal is to control the gun and keep the muzzle pointed away from you.

A large part of Janich's Counter Blade Concepts system is attacking support and control structure to escape a deadly confrontation. This takes training, time, constant practice and is well worth taking classes if you have the opportunity. In the absence of training, you want to be a sewing machine.

If you are fighting for your life:

Gain control of AR's weapon and move the muzzle off of you, even if it is for a split second.  Stab your assailant several times as rapidly as possible. Focusing on the open area surrounded by the ribcage and waist.

Can't get that? Fine. Stab him as many times as you can, anywhere you can, while trying to gain control of the gun.

When your assailant stops fighting, you must stop your defensive acts. He drops the gun, assuming he isn't reaching for a second weapon, your part is over. Move the gun away from him and make distance, get both police and medical people moving.

But you must assure your assailant no longer has the power to kill or injure you. Leaving the gun under his control is a fatal mistake.  So is attempting first aid.

What type of knife? In my opinion, I'd want a fixed blade. The blade comes out of the sheath, I don't need to change grips, open it or fool with it. I can focus on not getting shot. The last photo, if you squint and use you imagination, suggest  D had a fixed blade.

 There are some disadvantages to a fixed blade. They tend to be big and noticeable. You want to be able to draw the knife without your assailant knowing. In some communities, a fixed blade will draw unwanted attention to you. A folding knife in your pocket can be invisible.

With a folding knife, you want a clip to keep it where you put it. A stable, secure lock and a simple way of opening the knife are highly recommended. The tactical knife market has many examples of these.

Still, if you have the automatic or assisted-opening knife in the wrong grip, it will not open. Some knives are highly dependent on grip to open. Manually opening holes and studs require extra dexterity. And for those of you that flip the blade open with a snap of the wrist, I've never been to a knife class where people using this method didn't throw their knives to the ground during class, at least once.

For self-defense, I recommend an out-the-front by a quality manufacturer. I'd practice with it, keep it sharp and clean, and use it only for self-defense. Need to cut a box? Get another knife.

Good luck!

Here are a couple of links you might want to check.

https://tactical-talk.blogspot.com/2021/01/jim-davis-on-knives.html

 

https://tactical-talk.blogspot.com/2022/08/attack.html